Poker Interviews
Larry Flynt on PokerControversial pornographer and civil rights activist Larry Flynt discusses why he’s not afraid of Phil Ivey, what really happened with Amarillo Slim, and why Seven-Card Stud is a better game than Hold ‘Em. by Daniel Lazarek I'm in the opulent poker room of the Hustler Casino in Gardena, California, to watch Larry Flynt play in one of the richest side games in the country. I expect to find Flynt's table in a secluded, exclusive area for high-rollers, but surprisingly, it's just another one of the many tables in the Hustler's poker room. In fact, there's a meager $2-$4 game going on only a few feet away. A towering 6' 5" security guard keeps the bystanders from getting too close. The game is $2000-$4000 Seven-Card Stud with a $500 ante. An average pot is around $40,000. That's enough to buy a new BMW Z4 roadster, a year's tuition at Harvard, or Thomas Jefferson's autograph. There's probably about a million dollars on the table, in lavender $500 chips and burgundy $5000 chips. These guys are betting more money with one chip than there is in that entire $2-$4 game at the next table. Flynt alone has around $200,000 in front of him. It costs $32 per half hour to play in this game, and the players usually toke $5 per pot. I inquire what kinds of luxurious comps are offered to entice these big-money players. Does the casino provide sultry Hustler escorts to keep them company? I'm told that the players may eat for free from the dining menu, but that's about it. Apparently, the high-stakes action is enticement enough. Most of the casino's patrons are preoccupied with their own games, and they don't seem too concerned with the world-class action going on at the next table. A few fans do take notice, and they're giving Phil Ivey all the attention. He politely acknowledges their jocular shout-outs with a wave and a smile. The brilliant and photogenic Ivey is fantastically popular these days (he's prominently featured on ESPN’s WSOP coverage), but the less recognizable Chip Reese is arguably the greatest player at the table. Occasionally, an unaware passerby will catch a glimpse of Flynt or Ivey, do a double take, and gawk until the security guard brushes them back. The game is aggressive, which is not surprising, since Ivey, Oppenheim and Robison are known for their aggressive play. After watching for hours, I haven't seen a single round of betting checked. Flynt seems to be playing conservatively. At one point, he bets out, showing nothing better than the 8 of clubs. Chip Reese promptly folds. Flynt chuckles and flashes pocket kings, and Reese teases him for playing too tightly. The action is quick. There's none of the tortured decision-making and confrontational staredowns that we're used to seeing in No-Limit tournaments. Except for an occasional call/fold tossup decision on the river, the players act quickly and confidently. It's amazing, when you consider how intensely they are concentrating. You can make a nice living by winning one $4,000 bet per week (that's $208,000 per year). Think about all those loose low-limit players who disrespect your pre-flop raises and suck out on you with their gutshots. Would they be willing to lay down $4,000 to make those terrible calls? These pros certainly aren't about to throw away a week's salary on a careless play. Just imagine: you manage to play perfect poker for a month, winning $20,000. Suddenly, you're distracted by the revealing uniform of a Hustler waitress, and you miss a critical read on Barry Greenstein. Next thing you know, your $20,000 has migrated to his side of the table - a month's work undone by a momentary lapse of concentration. If you make a single mistake, these guys will politely, quietly crush you. There's a deliberate, precise, calculated purpose behind every chip that goes into the pot. Yet the pros act so casually, so quickly, they make that sophisticated thought process seem effortless. Flynt is an excellent Seven-Card Stud player, but how can he possibly compete against these monsters? A dealer I spoke to estimated that Flynt leaks about $300,000 a month at the poker table. Based on what I saw, it does appear that Flynt is supplying the game. When Flynt excuses himself from the table, the action ceases. Barry Greenstein's petite companion feeds him steamed vegetables. David Oppenheim and his entourage stroll around the casino. Frank Thompson reads a magazine. When Flynt returns, the absent players instantly materialize. When Flynt goes home at about 1:00 AM, the game ends immediately. Clearly, the pros aren't here to test their skills against each other; they’re here to win Flynt’s money. But Larry Flynt has never been afraid of a challenge. Larry Claxton Flynt was born in Kentucky in 1942, the son of poor Appalachian sharecroppers. He grew up in a shack with a dirt floor in Magoffin County (at the time, the poorest county in the United States). When he was young, his mother divorced his alcoholic father. He dropped out of grade school and enlisted in the Army at age 15 by assuming a false identity. After being discharged from the Army, Flynt enlisted in the Navy, and served until 1964. By age 21, he had declared bankruptcy and been twice divorced. He bought a bar in Dayton, Ohio, and turned it into a strip club for working-class hillbillies. "Hillbilly Haven", as it was called, was profitable, and by 1973, he owned eight strip clubs throughout Ohio. He published a 2-page black-and-white newsletter to promote his clubs. Within a year, that publication expanded into the nationally distributed pornographic magazine Hustler. Flynt conceived Hustler as a "working-class" alternative to highbrow competitors Playboy and Penthouse. Hustler was remarkable for its explicit and vulgar pornography, its leave-no-stone-unturned offensiveness, and its peculiar anti-authoritarian attacks on politicians, organized religion, and class privilege. The magazine would make Flynt hundreds of millions of dollars. It would also make him the target of numerous obscenity and libel lawsuits. Flynt defied the courts to censor him, and became an outspoken first-amendment activist. He engaged in outrageous courtroom antics, such as wearing an American flag as a diaper, throwing orange peels at a judge, and showing up at a Supreme Court hearing wearing a T-shirt inscribed "Fuck This Court". Flynt ultimately prevailed in most of his criminal trials, with the courts ruling that the contents of Hustler were protected by the Constitution as free speech. The most significant and important ruling was the landmark Falwell vs. Flynt decision, in which the Supreme Court ruled "the fact that society may find speech offensive is not a sufficient reason for suppressing it." In Flynt's words, "We have to tolerate things that we don't necessarily like, so we can be free. " In 1978, during one of his many obscenity trials, he was shot twice with a .44 Magnum in an assassination attempt. He survived, but the attack left him paraplegic. For years afterwards, he suffered agonizing pain, which he compared to being boiled alive, and he became addicted to painkillers. In the early 1990's, Flynt had a series of radical surgeries that relieved his chronic pain and helped him to overcome his addiction. Flynt was the subject of the 1996 film The People vs. Larry Flynt, starring Woody Harrelson as Flynt. The film was accused of glorifying an exploitative criminal and downplaying the degrading and destructive effects of pornography. But the controversy surrounding the film reinforced the film's portrayal of the dubious Flynt as the embodiment of the First Amendment’s moral complexities. Flynt remains a successful businessman and controversial public figure. He spends millions pursuing his unique style of social and political activism. He also funds spinal-cord injury research. In a February 2004 interview with Wired News, he was asked, "What legacy do you hope to leave the world?" He replied, "That I fought to expand the perimeters of free speech, and that I didn't waver on that issue. I'm proud of the contributions I've made in that area." He also says he would give up all of his accomplishments to be able to walk again. Flynt began playing poker as a teenager in the Navy, to pass the long hours at sea. After Hustler made him a millionaire, he played in high-stakes games in Las Vegas, at the Golden Nugget and the Mirage. These days, he has his own casino, where he competes against the best players in the world. In 1998, he purchased a bankrupt card room, the El Dorado, spent $30 million on renovations, and reopened the club as the Hustler Casino on June 22, 2000. During the opening, a radio station asked Flynt why he had opened the casino. "Because I love playing poker," he replied. Flynt absolutely loves Seven-Card Stud (it's the only game he'll play). According to legend, after one of his surgeries, he played for 17 straight days on a gurney hooked up to an IV. Flynt doesn't enter many tournaments, but he likes playing in the Seven-Card Stud event at the WSOP (he placed 8th in 2000). In 2001, the Hustler Casino held a special promotional tournament in which the winner played Flynt heads-up for a $50,000 prize. Flynt lost the heads-up match, but the promotion was a success for the casino. It’s Flynt’s talent for self-promotion that has made his many accomplishments possible. This interview took place on March 11, 2004 in Flynt’s office, at the top floor of the striking Larry Flynt Publications Inc. building in Beverly Hills. When I entered his enormous office, Mr. Flynt was seated, facing me, at the opposite side of the room, behind an immense wooden desk. I nervously crossed the office like the Cowardly Lion approaching the Wizard of Oz. The office is decorated with statues, paintings, Tiffany-style lamps, and elaborate gold candelabras. Enormous windows overlook the streets of Beverly Hills, ten stories below — and in the distance, the green, rolling Hollywood Hills. Flynt has come a long way from the dirt-floor shack where he grew up. He spoke in the amicable, declarative manner of someone accustomed to giving interviews. He was very gracious, and answered the questions slowly and quietly in his distinctive, croaky voice. DANIEL LAZAREK: When did you first become interested in poker? LARRY FLYNT: Oh, I've played poker since I was a kid. As a young man in the Navy I played poker. I didn't really start playing poker professionally until the late 70's in Vegas. And the reason why I opened a casino here in California is I had always had the fantasy of wanting my own club, and it seemed like it would be an exciting thing to do, and it worked very well: it's profitable, and I don't have to go to Vegas to find a good poker game now. LAZAREK: So, you started playing poker in the military? FLYNT: Yeah, in the Navy. I started playing just for something to do. LAZAREK: And where did you play in the late 70's? FLYNT: I started out playing at the Golden Nugget and the Mirage. LAZAREK: Did anyone teach you how to play, or did you teach yourself? Did you read any books to help you learn the game? FLYNT: Yeah, I did read some books. Probably the best book out there is the one written by Doyle Brunson about 25 years ago… very good book. It's a big leather bound edition, they used to sell 'em in the Horseshoe for $25 a copy. I forget what the actual name is. And I read a couple of Sklansky's books. LAZAREK: How do you feel about Sklansky? FLYNT: Well, all those guys got good points and bad points, but I don't think that anybody in poker that writes is stressing the bankroll in their strategies. You've got to learn how to manage your money, whether you're playing blackjack or whether you're playing poker. I've found that a lot of guys who write about poker don't stress… you know, if you've got a hundred dollars, or a hundred thousand to play, or to lose, or whatever, if you lose that, you walk out; you don't chase the money. LAZAREK: Before the Hustler Casino opened, there was speculation that you would have trouble getting a gaming license, because of your past legal troubles. But now you're the casino's sole proprietor. How did you manage that? FLYNT: Well, I've had a lot of court cases, I've had a lot of convictions. I've even been convicted of a lot of felonies. But I won every single case on appeal. So, I have no felony convictions on my record, and that's what the state of California uses as a criteria for a gaming license: you cannot be convicted of a felony. And also, they can't go back any farther than ten years for misdemeanors, so that cleared me for the license, even though it took me three years to get it. LAZAREK: In 1998, the governor and the attorney general of California didn't look favorably upon gambling. Is Governor Schwarzenegger's administration more hospitable to casinos and card rooms? FLYNT: I think the current administration is more agnostic. They're focusing on budget problems, and they're not quite sure how to deal with the Indian tribes, or the card clubs, in terms of how much they should expand gaming. We've asked Governor Schwarzenegger to support our initiative which we've got going on the ballot this fall, which would legalize slot machines in the private casinos. He has not taken a position on that. Even though we feel that we could win without his support, we would still like to have it. LAZAREK: When you bought the card room, you referred to the purchase as a gamble. Has it paid off? FLYNT: Oh, yeah, it's paid off in spades. We're making more money than we ever dreamed that we would from the club. LAZAREK: How often do you play there? FLYNT: I usually play on weekends when I'm in town. LAZAREK: And you usually play $1500-$3000 Seven-Card Stud? FLYNT: Or $2000-$4000. $1500-$3000 or $2000-$4000. You can win or lose a quarter million a night very easily. LAZAREK: In those games, you play against some of the world's best professional players: Ted Forrest… FLYNT: Phil Ivey, David Chiu, David Gray, Danny Robison. LAZAREK: What's it like playing against the professionals? FLYNT: Well, I'll put it this way: it's a very competitive game. And you gotta be alert, and at your best, when you're playing with those guys, 'cause they'll get the upper hand real quick if you're not quicker than they are. LAZAREK: Do you ever feel nervous going up against them? FLYNT: No, no. I think that I might have felt nervous back when I would gamble without having a proper bankroll, but ever since I've been in a position where I could afford to gamble, I've never been nervous. LAZAREK: How would you describe your style of play? Are you a more aggressive, confrontational player, or are you more cautious and patient? FLYNT: The biggest advantage that I have to my play is… you can teach anyone the basic strategy of poker. Where I take the advantage is… money. It don't hurt me if I lose, I can afford to lose, it's not going to change my lifestyle in the least. So, you get some of those guys — even though they may be well known poker players who are very good — that are still coming into the game with a short bankroll. It's tough to play your best game when you're short on money. LAZAREK: When you're "scared money." FLYNT: Yes. LAZAREK: So you bully them? FLYNT: Well, I don't think it's an OVERT act of being a bully. It's just, you know, something that they're aware of. LAZAREK: So, do you tend to throw a lot of money into the pot, to make them more reluctant to tangle with you? FLYNT: No, I don't do that. I play very solid poker. I've seen a lot of guys get out there and they raise and reraise and double-raise and all that, play all these crazy hands, and you know, some nights those guys can come out and win every chip on the table. But for the most part, they're gonna lose. It's better to have a more moderate strategy. LAZAREK: Is Seven-Card Stud your favorite type of poker? FLYNT: Yes. LAZAREK: Do you ever play any other kinds? FLYNT: No. And I think that the World Series of Poker, which is Hold 'Em now… you know, a bunch of people out of Texas who play Hold 'Em started advocating that game as the game of choice, and I really don't think it ever really was, because even if you talk to Hold 'Em people, they will tell you that it's more fun playing Stud than it is Hold 'Em. Hold 'Em is like playing Baccarat. It's a boring, very boring game. LAZAREK: Would you change the World Series to Stud? FLYNT: Well, if I could I would. LAZAREK: Do you enjoy playing in tournaments? FLYNT: I'm not a big tournament fan. I try to play in the World Series every year. LAZAREK: Do you have any interesting stories about playing poker? FLYNT: The most interesting poker story I have is this friend of mine Eric Drake, who managed several card rooms at the time — then he went on to manage the Golden Nugget and the Mirage — he had a guy that kept bugging him about staking him in a game, in a lower stakes game than what we were playing. So, Eric reaches in his pocket and gave him a couple thousand dollars and he says "Just play, but I DON'T WANT TO HEAR ABOUT ANY BAD BEATS. Just play. I don't wanna hear it." The guy gets in this game, and he's got rolled-up sixes and he hits a 4th six on 4th street… and then the guy on the opposite end of the table broke out with four tens on the board. (laughs) Here he is sitting there with four sixes, which is a phenomenal hand, which is always a winning hand, 'cause you hardly ever see a game where there's quads in two hands in the same game, or a royal flush and quads, you know. And he comes back there and he says, "You won't believe what happened." (chuckles) LAZAREK: Amarillo Slim claims to have beaten you for two million dollars in poker. Care to respond to that allegation? FLYNT: (smiling) Amarillo Slim is a (*******) liar. His whole reputation has been built on lies. LAZAREK: Did you ever play with him? FLYNT: Sure, I played with Slim, but he never beat me out of no million dollars or whatever he said he did. LAZAREK: Do you still play Blackjack? FLYNT: Yeah. It's one of my better games, I do very well in it. LAZAREK: Can you make a profit at blackjack? FLYNT: Oh, sure. I've won more money playing blackjack probably than I have at poker. LAZAREK: How do you do that? Do you just use basic strategy, or are you counting the deck somehow? FLYNT: No. I play basic strategy. You see, you start counting cards, and messing with your bets, and you'll just get barred. Any casino will do that. LAZAREK: But… but doesn't basic strategy have a negative expectation in the long run? FLYNT: No, because the problem is nine out of ten blackjack players who are usually playing in a casino don't KNOW basic strategy. They know when to double down, and maybe when to hit, but they don't know how to properly use it. I will only play at a table by myself. I won't play at a table with those idiots, because they'll mess the whole deck up. They don't know what they're doing. LAZAREK: Any final words? Thoughts about the election? FLYNT: (thinks) Anybody but Bush.
Sources:
Flynt, Larry with Ross, Kenneth. An Unseemly Man: My Life as a Pornographer, Pundit and Social Outcast. Newstar Press, 1997 http://www.wired.com/news/privacy/0,1848,62343,00.html
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Flynt is seated in his $80,000
gold-plated wheelchair, in the seat directly across from the dealer. Because of his disability, Flynt has difficulty concealing his hole cards as he lifts
them from the table. To prevent him from accidentally exposing his hand, there's a wooden panel that rests on the table and shields his cards from the
other players. To Flynt's left sit David Oppenheim, Phil Ivey, and Chip Reese. To his right sit Barry Greenstein, Frank Thompson, and Danny Robison. Of
those six players, four are WSOP Stud champions (Ivey, Reese, Robison and Thompson). Greenstein was recently the top-ranked Seven-Card Stud player in
the world. And certainly every player at the table has been influenced by Chip Reese, whose seminal treatise on Seven-Card Stud strategy, published 25
years ago as part of the immortal poker bible Super/System, revolutionized the game. Needless to say, it’s a world-class field of terrifying magnitude.
Yet despite the awesome competition, Flynt doesn’t seem intimidated. A toothpick hangs nonchalantly from his lips.
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