Poker Interviews

Talking Tournament Poker with Richard Tatalovich - Part I
By Lee Munzer

Several readers have asked how I select subjects for my interviews. It's not easy. I seek players who are interesting, accomplished, and open with their ideas on strategy and other suggestions that will improve our play. As you might expect, many top professionals are unwilling to impart knowledge that may be used against them. In addition, if you were a top player would you really want to spend four or five hours baring your poker soul into a tape recorder?

As mankind (women included of course) propels from decade to decade and millennium to millennium, new names emerge in all areas of human endeavor. In professional poker, one of these names is Richard Tatalovich. With the name comes a handsome face, an athletic body, a great mind, and an audacious style of play. When he outlasted 242 opponents to capture the limit hold'em event at the 2000 Orleans Open, Mike Paulle made these comments in his Internet report: "Richard Tatalovich has the nerve of a cat burglar working in broad daylight. There is something about his table demeanor that works. Richard won most of the key pots heads up … to take yet another limit hold'em title. The guy can really play this game." That's high praise coming from the astute scribe who has watched more championship final table play in the last ten years than anyone in the world.

I met the 6'1", 190 pound Scottsdale, Arizona resident while playing the $330 Omaha high-low event at the Sam Boyd Poker Classic in September, 1999. I spent some time with this active, outdoor enthusiast (biking, hiking, working out, traveling, exploring, and various sports) at Harrah's Carnivale III a few months later. We discussed being single, dating, concerts, theater, art exhibits, museums, movies, and enjoying fine (and casual) dining with the right lady. We discovered travel commonality. Richard related his Caribbean adventures where he rented a boat, explored uninhabited islands, and scuba dived in remote unspoiled places. Then, we hung out at the World Series of Poker (WSOP) and the Tournament of Champions (TOC) this year. He is one of the most open, intelligent players I've met since joining Poker Digest two years ago. His grasp of poker concept is excellent. As you'll see, he spends a great deal of time thinking about his game and attempting to fine tune it. His ability to articulate his comprehension is terrific. Finally, he agreed to my ultimate offer - two slices of pizza and a small soda - as payment for this interview. Lately, top players like Richard are driving hard bargains and crushing my expense budget. If you feel a tear coming on, all contributions are gratefully accepted.

Lee Munzer: We could begin at the beginning, but I want to ask you about the highs and lows of playing professional tournament poker, an occupation that has monumental income fluctuations. You did very well at the Orleans Open, but busted out relatively early at the TOC. What are your thoughts after a disappointing showing in an event you had been pointing towards?

Richard Tatalovich: I was very unhappy with my poor TOC showing. But, after reviewing my play, I came to the conclusion that I would have played most of the hands the same way - I was 'rivered' several times. However, I did play some drawing hands in seven-card stud that I shouldn't have. They were the type of hands that I usually play when I have built a large stack (which I never did at the TOC). I'm not sure if it's a correction or a matter of semantics, but I don't consider myself a professional player because I don't make my living through poker.

LM: You're right. You have a day job. Tell us what you do and what a typical day is like for you.

RT: I've always owned my own businesses; almost exclusively in the natural health, natural products field. Primarily, I've formulated and manufactured my own lines of natural food products and natural supplements, but at times I've also owned retail natural food stores, a natural food restaurant and cafe, a natural food bakery, and a natural food wholesale company. Currently, my partners and I are manufacturing and selling our own line of products - unique, high quality, nutriceuticals - a new class of food supplements that offer pharmaceutical powers without the potential negative side effects of prescription drugs. We sell directly to U. S. consumers through our website. We've just begun to run tests in several retail outlets. We also export our products. We are currently selling to Malaysia, South Korea, the Philippines, Holland, and Canada. We are in negotiations with China, Japan, and a few other countries at this time. A typical workday usually consists of nothing too exciting or out of the ordinary … just business stuff. I spend a lot of time on the phone, in meetings, sending e-mails and faxes, planning the future, etc. The workload picks up when I'm putting together a new product or marketing campaign. I'm involved in everything from A to Z, i.e., new ideas, naming the product, label design, writing brochures, procuring the raw materials, arranging manufacturing, and lots more.

LM: I take it you don't carry processed cheddar cheese in the foamy version. Actually, as a long-time, avid vitamin consumer, I checked out your cool website (www.appliedhealth.com). I can use some Smart weigh™, a bottle of Weigh less™, and a big dose of Ginko Biloba to help my memory. Let's get back to your play in the TOC. You were talking about making decisions based on 'stack size'. Important?

RT: Yes, the drawing hands I chose to play are good examples. I didn't have surplus chips to lose and should have avoided speculative hands. I could not afford to lose those pots. There was another factor. On the surface, I would have played them the same way (since they were monster draws with many outs) if I was up against a strong player each time, because a strong player would have given up his/her weak hand with the board I was showing. But, on these particular hands, I was up against weak players who were calling stations, so I shouldn't have taken the chance. I made mistakes in situations where I know better. I would say, "live and learn," but I had already learned that lesson long ago. I guess I needed a refresher course on that one (laughs). I had been looking forward to TOC 2000 for a full year after a disappointing showing in 1999. I was in great chip position on day two when I suddenly found my game being governed by Murphy's law … everything that could go wrong went wrong. I may always be disappointed when I don't 'cash' at the TOC because I think the format is tailor made for my game (as well as for many other players, of course). I was certain that I would be in the hunt this year, but I didn't even get to the second day. As we discussed, it would have been a crushing failure had I not 'cashed' six times at the Orleans Open. My success there served to greatly alleviate the disappointment and kinda counterbalance things. I know that I left Las Vegas in a much more favorable position than most, so don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining. Overall, I was very pleased with the way the trip went.

LM: Before we go too far, your results are incredible and I want the readers to know they are getting information from a proven source. So, put modesty aside and list your tournament achievements in just the last two years.

RT: I've won the following:

• The Hollywood Park National Championship of Poker main event (limit hold'em)
• The Fort McDowell ($100,000 added) King of the Hill (limit hold'em)
• The Casino Arizona ($10,000 added) Holiday Tournament (seven-card stud)
• The Sam Boyd Poker Classic (Omaha high low 8-or-better)
• The Carnivale of Poker $1,500 buy-in (limit hold'em)
• The Orleans Open (limit hold'em)
• Crystal Park's Hot August Nights tourney (Omaha/8)
• Numerous wins and final table finishes at various major tourneys in Arizona, Las Vegas, and California including the WSOP.

LM: How did you get into poker?

RT: In grade school back in Aliquippa, Pennsylvania, my cousin Michael and I frequently slept over at each other's houses. After our parents went to sleep, we would play heads up poker in the middle of the night, often until dawn. We would go to sleep when we heard our parents waking up. They could never figure out why we slept so late. I played some poker with friends when I was in high school in Pennsylvania. Occasionally, we would get together on a Friday night or Saturday afternoon for a nickel-dime-quarter game. After high school most of us moved away and scattered to colleges in different parts of the country. That was the end of my poker playing until a few years ago when I moved from Michigan to Arizona. One Friday evening in late 1995 or early 1996, having no plans and just exploring my new locale, I wandered into the Fort McDowell Casino. I was amazed to see a large poker room filled with poker players sitting in cash games. It was the first cardroom I had been in. There were no cardrooms anywhere I had lived previously. It brought back memories of my high school days and how much I had enjoyed playing poker back then. I was always pretty good at it … compared to the friends I played with at least. No one, including myself, knew much about playing styles or strategies, but I always had innate mathematical abilities. Therefore, my game was based on mathematics and probabilities and that was enough to give me an edge.

LM: Were you intimidated? Fort McDowell has a big poker room.

RT: I was very intimidated by this sea of tables (45 to be exact), but I mustered up the courage to sit in on a $1-$3 stud game (they also offered Texas hold'em and Omaha; two games I had never heard of). At the time, I considered this limit super high stakes poker. I remember thinking, 'Wow, I am really gambling now'! I lost $50 that night, but my long lost poker cravings came back. I started playing on a weekly basis, usually on Friday nights. I was flying by the seat of my pants, but I was soon beating the game on a regular basis.

LM: Were you playing tournaments?

RT: Not for awhile. Then one day "The Fort" (as the casino is known) announced they were going to start putting on poker tournaments every Tuesday and Thursday evening for a couple months during the summer as a special promotion to lure people out of their air conditioned homes. 'A tournament … what's that?' I wondered. It's hard to believe that just a few years ago I was so uninformed and naïve about the world of poker; but again, I had never lived in an area where I would have been exposed to it. When I inquired about the tournaments and received an explanation, I thought, 'This is a great concept'! I've always been a competitive person who enjoys challenges. I loved the idea that everyone started with the same amount of chips. If you lost them, you couldn't buy more, and in order to come in first you had to end up with every chip in the room. It seemed so incomprehensible, but it also seemed like a great challenge. Once again, I felt very intimidated when I entered my first tournament. Not because of the buy in, which was only $25, but from the fear that I would slow the game down or make a fool of myself because I had no experience. I busted out early that first time, but I knew then that this was something I was going to love doing - I was hooked!

LM: What were your initial thoughts concerning your performance?

RT: As I was driving home that evening, I played my first tournament experience back through my mind. The thing that occurred to me was that I shouldn't play a tournament the same way I played a cash game. While this may seem obvious to your readers, it hadn't occurred to me until I played once. As soon as I got home, I couldn't wait to grab a tablet and start writing feverishly about my thoughts, my ideas, and the mistakes I had made. Once again, flying by the seat of my pants, I started devising strategies on how I should play in a tournament. I couldn't wait for the next event (two days later). I reviewed my notes a few times prior to the next tournament. I lasted considerably longer in that one. I was very encouraged. I didn't look at it as busting out in the middle of the tournament, but as, 'Wow, I beat 75 players'. Again, when I got home I wrote several more pages, including the mistakes I made and the things I did that worked. I refined my strategy a little more. Prior to the next tournament, I reviewed my ever-increasing pages of notes. I kept repeating this cycle with every tournament. Soon, I had piles of notes everywhere. After awhile, my work began to pay off as I became one of the most consistent tournament players at The Fort.

LM: I believe it was Thomas Jefferson who said, "I'm a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work, the more I have of it." Self-evaluation was the subject of one of the first articles I wrote for Poker Digest. I believe successful people are driven in this area. Do you recall the specifics of these events … number of players, prize structure, etc.?

RT: These were really great tournaments. Each was limited to 150 players and always sold out. The buy in was only $25, but first place was worth over $7,000 in cash and prizes. Fort McDowell would give the winner a poker cruise for two plus a few thousand dollars in cash. In addition to adding the cruise, I believe they also doubled the prize pool! At one stretch, I made 11 or 12 final tables out of 14 tournaments. I believe I won three of them. During one of these wins, I was busted down to a single $5 chip after a big hand didn't hold up. I started flipping the chip in the air saying, "I'm not done yet, I still have a shot." Everyone at the table, including myself, had a good laugh over that. Someone said "a chip and a chair." It was the first time I ever heard that expression. I see this as my single most important experience in tournament poker. When I came all the way back to win that tournament, I proved to myself that it can be done. From that day on I never have given up … no matter how dire my chip position. I just see a very short stack as a temporary setback. Since that experience I've come back several times to win tournaments or finish high in the money from nearly impossible chip positions. I recall a period where I was low in chips in three consecutive tournaments. I ended up heads up all three times. In one I had a huge chip lead and won easily. The other two times my opponent and I had equal chips. I got each opponent all in on the flop and had the lead both times; but I was drawn out on and finished second each time.

LM: Speaking of a chip and a chair, my 2000 Harrah's Carnivale article (Volume 3, Issue 5) carried one of your "amazing, but true" comebacks. I said, "Richard Tatalovich, the best player in Scottsdale, Arizona, made two final tables and took home more than $90,000, but that's not the story. Giving credence to the expression, 'A chip, a chair, and a prayer,' Richard was down to a lone $100 chip when the blinds had reached $100/$200 late in the $1,500 buy in limit hold'em event. He was surrounded by players who had the remainder … $197,900 in checks. His incomprehensible objective … double through 11 times. It took him five hours, but that's precisely what Richard did." I recall Mike Paulle mentioning your comeback was one of the greatest in major tournament history.

RT: Yes, that's what Mike wrote in his tournament report. By the way, I took some friendly ribbing concerning your Carnivale coverage. Lee, I know 'best' was your choice of adjectives and you may have meant 'hottest' player, but I felt uneasy because although I've had some success in major tournaments, it is still quite early in my poker career and I know that I have a way to go before I can claim the long-term success that other tournament players from the Scottsdale area have enjoyed. Also, we have many top notch ring game players who are very successful here as well as other poker venues. We have some of the country's largest and best cardrooms in the "Valley of the Sun" and they are frequented by many very solid players. I hope your readers will find the time to visit us at some point, but I'll warn them in advance, don't expect an easy game.

LM: True, I meant 'best currently' (based on your tournament record). Actually, that was careless writing because I believe the test of greatness in games and sports is sustained accomplishment. Let's go back to your early tournament education at Fort McDowell. What other methods were you using to improve your game?

RT: It was around this time that I picked up a poker magazine for the first time. I'm sure this sounds unbelievable, but I would pass by the rack of magazines with no interest.

LM: Say it ain't so!

RT: Sorry. Maybe because we humans can be creatures of habit, but I never had bothered to check them out. When I browsed through that first issue I was absolutely amazed to learn that there were all these big time poker tournaments taking place on a regular basis in Las Vegas, California, and other places. I also noticed all the different poker books that were available. Why hadn't it occurred to me that there were books on the subject? I had been flying by the seat of my pants and writing zillions of notes. In retrospect, I'm glad I did record all those notes and I continue to do so to this day.

LM: I'm sure you noticed the results pages with those big first place prize numbers.

RT: Yes, and reading the magazines on a regular basis I became familiar with the top tournament pro's names. I started thinking that one day maybe I would enter one of those tourneys to test myself against the big boys and girls. I eventually decided I was ready for prime time, packed my voluminous notes, and flew to Las Vegas to play in the 1997 Four Queens $500 buy in seven-card stud tourney. I was determined to be well rested and well prepared for my big debut, so I flew in the day before the tourney. Unfortunately, I decided to take a cab to the Mirage to check out the side action and "play for an hour or two." I told myself I would get back to the Four Queens no later than 9 p.m. Well, I got stuck big early. I decided to stay until I got all my money back, plus a nice profit. The good news: I accomplished this goal and left a winner. The bad news: it took until 11:30 a.m. the next day to do it! I made it to the Four Queens about one minute before the tourney began.

LM: In a way, I hope you didn't take home a trophy because this is not the way I suggest readers prepare for a $500 buy in event.

RT: Amen! My blood sugar had crashed hours before and I felt like hell. I sat down at my table and was immediately star struck. I don't remember everyone, but I know Men "The Master" Nguyen and Ken "Skyhawk" Flaton were at my table. Men was on my left. "The Master" was embroidered on his pant leg. At the time I was unfamiliar with most of the top players, but I recognized Ken from a photo I had recently seen. I believe he had just won a major tourney prior to the Four Queens. I think either T.J. Cloutier or Max Stern was at my first table also. I do remember all but one of the remaining players wore World Series bracelets. I recall some of the players reminiscing about major tournaments where they were heads up against each other, etc.

Funny thing; the only guy who didn't have a bracelet or championship ring on, was the one who was good-naturedly talking about how he beat just about everyone else at that table at critical junctures in major tournaments that he had won. To this day, I don't know who he was and I can't picture what he looked like. There was no dead money at that table … with the possible exception of me (laughs). I played like a fish right off the bat and within the first half hour I was down to $40 in chips from the $500 I started with. At that point, I became very angry with myself. This was not the way I wanted my first major tournament to go. From the time I had arrived in Las Vegas, I had done everything wrong. I completely deviated from my game plan and I had no one to blame but myself. I called upon my reserve of tenacity and really bore down.

To make a long story short, some good cards and 14 hours or so later, running on sheer adrenaline, I was still in the tourney and sitting at the final table. There were six of us left. I was co-chip leader with another player. We had 85 to 90 percent of the chips. The antes were now so high that the four short stacks would most likely be gone in short order. I believe first place was $30,000 and second place was half that. I could have left the table, gone to sleep, and been almost assured of second place. Anyway, through my blurry, sleep deprived eyes I looked at my hand and was ecstatic to see that I was rolled up (three sevens). Much to my further delight, the other big stack called me. On 4th and 5th street I caught 10-10. A full house on 5th street and the big stack is still in the hand! By the time the betting was completed on 6th street all of our chips were in the pot. I was elated. I was going to win the very first major tourney I ever played in!

My joy was short lived however, when my full house got snapped off by quads. Ouch! Double ouch!! What a bummer! I end up with 6th place money (I think I received $2,000), when just a moment before I had already mentally added 30 big ones to my checking account balance. I felt like I had just lost $28,000 instead of winning $2,000. It was about three a.m. and my adrenaline rush stopped dead. I hadn't slept for two days, felt miserable, and had just received my first major dose of the harsh realities of big time tournament poker. By the next day, after a good nights rest, I had a much better perspective on everything and was looking at it in a positive light. I did a thorough review of the tournament and 'relived' almost every significant hand. It could have been beginner's luck, but I came to the conclusion that it was not. I tried to be as objective as possible with my examination and I believe that after a very poor start, I played well, even brilliantly in some instances. So, as I was flying back to Scottsdale, I saw this experience as a real confidence builder. I had done well. I could compete at that level. I would be back.

LM: And, so will I, in the next issue, with many more questions for Richard.