Poker Interviews

Talking Tournament Poker with Richard Tatalovich - Part II
By Lee Munzer

Live report! We interrupt the interview you've been reading to bring you up-to-the-minute coverage from the Taj Mahal in Atlantic City. The main event has just concluded. Richard Tatalovich's A-K flopped an ace and held against John Juanda's A-Q. Tatalovich (although squinting from the incessant firing of flash equipment) is smiling broadly. You would be too if you had just won the United States Poker Championship (USPC)!

Lee Munzer: Richard, you're not cooperating. Every time I promise that I have completed my interview with you I get word you've won another tournament. Hey, do you not understand the sanctity of publishing deadlines? In addition, I thought my photo would grace this issue's cover (I placed third at the Stratosphere in a $33 buy in no-limit hold'em event). But no, you bumped me by winning, not just a major, but the main event at the USPC. I'll assume your portion of the prize pool was more than the $106 I picked up.

Richard Tatalovich: (Laughing) It was exactly the same ... if you just add three zeros then multiply by three.

LM: Not to mention the Rolex watch. I read many highly complimentary messages about you on the Internet following your great win. Some came from tournament pros and aficionados such as Andy Glazer. Others from your local opponents. Do you know Gerson Mosbacher?

RT: Yes. He's a solid tournament player who lives in Arizona.

LM: He stated, "I've played with Richard in more than 75 tournaments in the Phoenix area this year. He is no fluke. He can play. I've had an incredible year playing locally getting to final tables 28% of the time, but Richard makes me look like I've never played before." I e-mailed Gerson asking for his permission to use the preceding rec.gambling.poker post. He responded, "Sure, and Lee, a few other comments about Richard: you're in big trouble when playing against him if he gives you that deer in the headlights look, turns his chair around, or takes a lot of time before he acts … by taking time he usually gets a great read on his opponent. I've learned so much from his play, especially how he never loses his cool."

RT: I'm flattered to get these compliments from a player of Gerson's caliber. I like his game and consider him to be one of the very best local tournament players - definitely capable of doing well at major tourneys.

LM: It's December 18th as we speak and you have just returned to work from an extended poker break. In late October you journeyed to the quaint town of Ledyard, Connecticut. Take us through your travels from the first satellite at Foxwoods to the final hand at the USPC seven weeks later.

RT: I had never been to the Foxwoods Casino, but heard it had a terrific poker room and I really wanted to check it out ... not only for the tournament action but also because I was told the area was especially beautiful at this time of the year with the leaves changing colors. I was faced with a dilemma though. I was intrigued by the Poker Million tournament in Europe. It was brand new and the hot tournament … everyone was getting excited about it … but it overlapped with the latter stages of Foxwoods' tourney. I wanted to go to The Million for several reasons: I had never been to the Isle of Man; Jack McClelland had been hired so I knew the tournament would be well run; I had heard that players are treated very well at most European tournaments; the sponsor was guaranteeing approximately $1.5 million; and over the past year I felt I had really been "in the zone" when playing no-limit hold'em.

LM: With all those reasons, I suppose you chose the Poker Million?

RT: Yes and no. I actually decided to go to both tournaments. I made hotel reservations at Foxwoods for the first two thirds of their tourney and plane reservations to arrive at the Poker Million for the start of their events. It was a good decision. The beauty of Foxwoods outstripped my expectations. Also, I loved their tournament structures - plenty of play. In addition, the event was well attended. I got off to a fast start and had the best overall player point lead every day for the last 12 days I was there.

LM: I can see why. The Internet is so cool. I just clicked on Mark Napolitano's terrific www.pokerpages.com. Here are your Foxwoods results:

• Event no. 1 - Oct. 29th - 7 stud - 517 total players ($220 entry) 7th - $2,941
• Event no. 3 - Oct. 31st - NL HE - 294 total players ($220 entry) 1st - $22,953
• Event no. 6 - Nov. 3rd - 7 stud - 209 total players ($550 entry) 8th - $3,350

RT: I had some mixed emotions about giving up my chance to win the Rolex. I predicted (if I left) "Miami John" would overtake me and win the watch, which he did, but there were "bigger fish to fry" on the other side of the pond. So, off I went. Fortunately, my total held for third place and I will receive accommodations, courtesy of Foxwoods, at next year's WPF.

LM: Not to denigrate your prediction, but picking the great John Cernuto to win a 'best all around' is pretty much playing the favorite … one of my favorites anyway. He's got a Rolex for each wrist now. Does traveling and playing on the road (especially when you go deep into the events as you did at Foxwoods) begin to take its toll?

RT: I work hard to stay in shape knowing that tournament poker can become physically (and mentally) draining. But, in this case, the elements were getting the best of me. I had been getting very little sleep at Foxwoods due to my good fortune … as you outlined. Actually, I played into the wee hours of the morning even when I didn't cash. By the time I got to London's Heathrow airport, I hadn't slept for 51 hours. While I was waiting for my connecting flight to the Isle, a strange thing happened … I began hallucinating. No, I hadn't taken any drugs or medications. I believe my fantasies were due to sleep deprivation … with some jet lag thrown in for good measure.

I ran into David Plastik who had the same connecting flight. We were sitting together talking when I suddenly jumped up and said "Lets get out of here." I was convinced that the terminal was collapsing around us. David assured me nothing was wrong, but I was so sure that I grabbed my carry on bag and made a hasty retreat for the main terminal only to find that terminal was also shaking violently and on the verge of toppling. I then ran into Chip Winton and Melissa Hayden who were also on their way to the Isle. They tried to calm me down and managed to get me to the point where I finally came to the realization that the only thing collapsing was me … my surroundings were stable. It was really freaky. I considered calling for an ambulance, but I eventually stuck it out and managed to board the flight for the Isle, get to the hotel, and collapse in bed. The next morning, after a good rest, I felt fine.

LM: The same thing happened to me during 'hell week' in college after I hadn't slept for three days. The hallucinations were frightening and seemed absolutely real. We better move on to the Isle of Man before the readers think we're certifiable.

RT: I really enjoyed that event. It was a great tournament and the players were treated very well. Management laid out the red carpet for us. I hit the ground running there too. I won the first two super satellites that I entered. I played a few more but didn't win although I either made the final table or busted out a couple of places from it. That was okay though … it bolstered my confidence and confirmed that my no-limit hold'em game was on track. I felt very good about my chances in the big one, but I never got off the ground.

LM: What happened?

RT: I ran into a few hands and took a few beats early on.

LM: Hmm, I'll waive my "no bad beat stories" rule and allow you just one if you'd like.

RT: Bad beats are part of poker, but there was one that was unusual and I think the readers might find interesting. It occurred early on and really crippled me. I picked up pocket kings under the gun and raised three times the size of the big blind. I was called by a European player. I wasn't familiar with him, but he had been playing tight to that point. The flop came 4-4-3 with two diamonds. I liked my kings. I couldn't put him on pocket aces since he probably would have come over the top pre-flop. But, when I made a modest bet on the flop, he doubled my bet. What was going on? I couldn't put him on a hand that included a four since I didn't think he would call my under the gun raise with a hand such as A-4 suited … or even pocket fours.

In addition, if he had a four he (most likely) would slow play anyway. I decided he probably had a flush draw and hoped I would lay my hand down on the flop … or he was trying for a free card when I called and checked the turn. He could also have 10-10, J-J, or Q-Q. No more diamonds came, but he bet the turn and the river. I called both bets, putting him on a busted flush draw or a mid size pair. Well, I was wrong. He had K-4 offsuit and I dumped a bunch of chips.

LM: I can't imagine a player calling your early position raise in a $9,000 entry event with an awful hand like K-4.

RT: There's a little phrase I always keep in mind that I find equally applicable to poker hands as well as women: "Why ask why?" I actually applied for a license plate with that phrase.

LM: So, you headed back to work for a week or so.

RT: Yes, but not for several days. They spread another tournament … a $1,500 buy in pot-limit hold'em event (156 paid entries, I believe). I took 4th place in that one. Before we leave the Isle of Man, I want to say I was very happy that I chose to attend their first tournament. It was a terrific experience. Jack did a great job of running the tournament (as expected) and I've never been treated better anywhere. Everyone from the security guards, front desk personnel, waiters, waitresses, chefs, tournament staff, the dealers, to the Ladbroke 'execs' was genuinely friendly, helpful, and wanted to make sure that everyone was having a good time. As far as I'm concerned, one of the main things that makes or breaks a tournament is the attitude of the people connected with the event. The folks on the Isle get an A+ from me. I'll definitely be back next year and would highly recommend it to all poker players. By the time I got back to Phoenix, I was 'fried' from all the travel and long hours of my month long poker sojourn. I had never been to the Taj, but feeling 'cooked' I decided that I would get caught up with a big backlog of work and kick back for a while. I wanted to enjoy the wonderful weather that we have in Phoenix at this time of the year.

LM: Ah, but we know you didn't adhere to these plans … unless you have a double who wound up at the Taj.

RT: Yep, I did the exact opposite of what I had planned to do. I'm pretty compulsive about getting caught up with stuff, so I worked long hours with very little sleep for three straight days, made a spur of the moment decision to go to the Taj, packed some bags, headed for the airport, and took the next flight out. So, once again, across the country I flew. From the moment I arrived at the Taj Mahal, everything seemed to go wrong. My heart and desire weren't there. I was still burned out from the previous, arduous trips. Everyday was like Ground Hog Day … did you see the movie? What I mean is I would play deep into every tourney; be on the verge of a really good payday; and get busted out on a series of horrific beats … one out, two outs, or three outs on the river … runner, runner … even runner, runner, runner once. It was very discouraging, even depressing. I was exhausted from all the hours. Financially, all I was doing was burning through a bundle of cash. After nearly two weeks of play I had scored a single payday ($1,223 in a $1,060 buy in limit hold'em tourney). After the toke and a 10 percent 'piece' I owed somebody, I even lost money on that one too! It was shaping up to be my worst tournament ever.

LM: Did you think of returning to Phoenix?

RT: No, but I did some thinking. One day after I busted out, I walked the Atlantic City boardwalk for three hours on a freezing cold and windy day until I was numb from head to toe. I was trying anything that I could think of to break the cycle I was in. To make matters worse, about a week into my stay there, I was watching the day's final table action. I was sitting in a chair on the rail and stood up for a few seconds to get a better look at the flop. A dealer took my chair without informing me. So, when I sat down I fell very hard on my lower back. I was in pain the rest of my stay. Sitting down was particularly uncomfortable … quite a predicament for a tournament poker player. The pain was very distracting and made it difficult to focus on my game.

That brings us to the start of the championship event. By that time, I wished I had never made that impulsive decision two weeks earlier to hop on a plane and travel cross country. However, this was my last chance to salvage the trip. The day before the main event I became determined to do whatever I could to optimize my chances. I meditated; I relaxed in bed; I even took pain killers and anti-inflammatory medications - something that I am normally very averse to. But, despite these efforts, the tournament started out terribly for me. At the first break I had lost almost $5,000 of the $7,500 in tournament chips that I started with. I had some decent cards - medium pairs from middle position and a couple of A-K hands, but I couldn't win with anything. I either had to lay them down preflop or, if I did get to see a flop, it was exactly the opposite of what I needed. After the break I lost some more chips and dipped to $2,250.

LM: Do you recall the composition of your table?

RT: It was very scary (and I wasn't hallucinating). On my immediate left was Ian Dobson (a top European who took third in the Poker Million); on his left sat Erik Seidel (no introduction necessary); and to Erik's left was the congenial, but tough and aggressive Frenchman, Michel Bittan. Each had some of the biggest stacks in the tournament at that stage … from $14,000 to approximately $18,000. Two seats to my right was Bob Stupak, another aggressive, dangerous player. I was in a dire situation. I was crippled and unable to make any moves. If I moved all in, I could count on one of the three big stacks on my left coming after me. When I had the blinds, even if I was fortunate enough to have the three big stacks fold, I knew Stupak would move in on me (he had a medium/large stack at the time). I asked the floorman when our table was scheduled to break. He smiled sympathetically and said, "Not for a long time." Ugh, I was really screwed (can I say that?).

The next few hours - just trying to survive - was very stressful. I felt like I was hanging from a cliff by my fingernails. I was doing everything I could to try to finesse my way through until I could find a good hand. I joked with someone at the table that this short-stack game was my normal formula for success (but I really wasn't joking). It seems like I always have to be short-chipped and in survival mode before I can eventually come back from the dead and win a tournament. I'm the racehorse (remember Silky Sullivan?) that starts out 40 lengths in back of the pack and then closes strong. Well, just in the nick of time I found two hands to play. I can't remember what the first one was, but I won with it and doubled through with my meager stack. In the next hand, American Airlines arrived right on time and I doubled through again. I now had a medium sized stack and a little breathing room.

LM: For our new players, American Airlines is pocket aces. So your strategy changed?

RT: Yes, and my opponents' play did also. Remember, the size of your stack is one of the determining factors in their play as well as the other way around. Suddenly I had chips and possessed the capability of taking a nice sized chunk out of any stack at the table if they chose to play with me. It was at that point that I started to feel really good about my chances of winning the tournament … even though it was still day one. I gradually and methodically built my stack from there and ended up in 10th chip position at the end of the first day. Now I was feeling super confident. I caught a break when day two began. I was in the small blind. The big blind was short-stacked. I thought everyone had folded to me, so I put in a decent sized raise with a Q-8 suited. It was then that I realized the player under the gun had gone all in before me with about $6,000 in chips. I called the floorman to see if I was permitted to withdraw my bet of $2,000 since the big blind hadn't acted yet. The ruling was that I could fold and forfeit the $2,000 or put in another $4,000 to call the bet. There was now about $10,000 in the pot with the big blind and the antes.

After much contemplation, I decided the pot odds were enough to take a shot. He could have a small to medium pair … hopefully no higher than sevens. In that case I would be almost even money and I would be getting 2.5 times my money on the extra $4,000 I was risking. In any case, even if I lost, I would still have a bigger than average stack and I felt confident that I could rebuild. So, I called. He turned over J-10. Wow, I was actually the favorite … better than my best expectation! I didn't understand why someone would risk their entire stack with this hand and the whole table (most of whom had larger stacks) still behind him; but he did. I must admit that it was a pleasant surprise for me. He hit a 10, but I made a flush and raked in the pot. Lady luck had finally smiled on me and I took it as a good omen of things to come. It was like a cool, refreshing breeze just blew in and whisked away all of the crap of the previous two weeks. This will sound corny, but after that hand I felt destined to win. From that point on virtually every big laydown that I made was correct as well as every big call. I was firmly entrenched in "the zone".

LM: Fortunately, I was able to play along through the magic of the Internet and Napolitano's great reports. Let's discuss a key hand. With eight players left you picked up pocket aces. Here's an excerpt from Mark's website: "2:00 a.m. - now playing $1,000 ante, $3,000/$6000 blinds. First hand after the break and we have lost a player. Richard made it $26,000 to go and Tony Ma in the big blind moved in for $105,000. Richard called immediately and turned over A-A. Tony had A-K and was almost drawing dead. No miracle for Tony ... seven left." What was your thinking on the $26,000 amount? How long did you take before raising?

RT: I believe someone had called Tony's big blind prior to the action getting to me. I thought about the size of the bet that I should make for a minute or so. At the very least, I wanted one player to fold so I would be heads up. My ultimate scenario was to make a bet that would induce one of them to move in with all their chips. I concluded that with my $26,000 in the pot, along with the antes, blinds and other bets, the pot was juicy enough for one of them to try and take it right there … especially if either had A-K or a good sized pair (say 10-10, J-J, Q-Q, or K-K). If I put in much more than $26,000 they might feel that I was fairly 'pot committed' and they would be more reluctant to try to blow me out of the pot. If I put in a really large bet, they would lay their hands down and I would win a relatively small pot. I wanted to get the maximum value for my rockets. So, $26,000 seemed like the perfect amount to accomplish my goals. Bingo! Tony had a suited A-K and moved in. I felt a strange mixture of joy and remorse when I won that hand. I was happy that I had won a nice sized pot at such a critical time, but Tony is not only a great player but also a friend and I know how disappointing it had to be for him to bust out at that time in an important tournament. I felt a tinge of sadness.

LM: I like Tony also. I'll bet he showed very little emotion, shook your hand, and wished you luck. When you arrived at the final table I'm sure you were delighted to be the chip leader, but you couldn't have been too happy seeing my friend, John Juanda, and a player we've come to know well and respect, Steve Kaufman.

RT: Yes and no. On one hand, they're both great guys and I really like them. In addition, they played well and deserved to be there … so I was happy for them. On the other hand, they are both very strong players who would provide stiff competition. Who can match Steve's final table record in major no-limit hold'em tourneys in 2000 … fourth at the World Poker Open (WPO), third at the World Series of Poker (WSOP), and sixth here at the USPC? No one comes close as far as I know. And as good a full table player as John is, I like his short-handed game even better. So, as far as being a threat to my chips, you're right … they were faces I did not want to see at the final table.

LM: All's well that ends well and at least our friends took home sizable checks. Thinking about your results over the seven weeks, you really had some highs and lows. For you, I assume these swings are harder to take emotionally than financially, or am I incorrect?

RT: Incorrect. I really count on poker income to pay my bills and fuel my business. Over the last 10 years the nutritional products business has been largely taken over by Fortune 500 companies, so I feel like us independent, little guys are no longer playing on a level field … it's David versus Goliath, so to speak. We have to scratch and claw for every scrap of market share that we get.

LM: You are strong in all games. What are the major adjustments you make in playing a limit stud tournament one day and a no-limit hold'em tournament the next day?

RT: To me, getting ready for the next day's tournament is a matter of resilience more than adjustment. You have to be able to wipe the slate clean and feel properly motivated to play your best … no matter what happened the previous day. That's not always an easy thing to do, especially if you are running bad, as I was at the Taj (until the main event, of course).

LM: Was this the longest "work break" you've ever taken?

RT: To play poker, yes. Before I started playing poker I took some pretty lengthy breaks … usually after selling a business. I would just hang out and relax for a few months, usually in the Caribbean, while I contemplated my next venture.

LM: So this is the closest you've come to being a 'touring pro'?

RT: Yes, up until this past year I would occasionally leave town for a long weekend; sometimes four to five days to play a major tourney in Vegas or California. Then I wouldn't play again for maybe six or eight weeks. I played much more this year, but I still played less than half the year. This past trip was my longest by far.

LM: Bottom line … did you enjoy it?

RT: For the most part yes, although I came close to burnout a few times and it's hard on the body … too much sedentary time.

LM: Well, let's not burn the readers out.

Richard and I will return next issue to discuss strategy, the future of tournament poker, and some thoughts on improving several aspects of the game. Oh, and I think you'll enjoy his answer to this question: "Can you tell the readers something they probably don't know."